Is There a God? The Deist and Pantheist view.

In this episode, the Bald Brothers discuss the idea of God from a deist and a pantheist view. We compare these views with that of traditional Christian views and see some startling observations that seem at odds with our traditional religious upbringing. In addition, we are just beginning to talk about the differences between western religion and eastern philosophy of enlightenment. 

Some of our nations founders were deist and this sparked some conversation around their idea of separation of church and state.  This is a topic that we will delve into in later episodes.

As always, we close out the episode with a story centered around faith and healing. One person's personal experiences and triumph will be the playbook for someone else going through similar trials and tribulations. 

Transcript

0:04

Yeah, that's mind, body, soul. We connected with the globe. Yeah, that's mind, body, soul took some discipline, repetition and some self-control. We connected with the globe. Said that's mind, body, soul. Whoa. Yeah. That's mind, body, soul. Hey. Yeah. That's Mind, body, soul took some discipline, repetition and some self-control. Triple lies be the tribe yet that's body, soul. Welcome to Cirque the Soul, the only uncut, unedited podcast that is dedicated to helping you to find spiritual peace in your life. Kim, this is the last episode in our series of Is There a God? Yeah, it's been great. Over the past few weeks we have discussed the question, is there a God. We've looked at this from the agnostic and the atheist perspective, so today we're gonna visit this question from the perspective of the deist and the pantheist to review. Number one, deist someone who believes in a God or supreme being who created the universe, but does not intervene in its affairs or in human life, relying on reason and observation. Pan is someone who believes that the universe, nature and reality are identical to divinity or a superior entity. Meaning that everything is part of a single, all-encompassing deity rather than a separate creator. This is gonna be fun and a fascinating topic, Gary. Yeah, you're right. And, to start, let's go ahead and discuss the Daz point of view and a couple of points here. Okay. Now the Diaz, they insist that religious truth should be subject to the autonomy of human reason rather than divine revelation. In other words, if you can reason and see a God, then that's, that takes precedent over, the idea of this divine revelation. So they deny that the Bible was the reveal word of God, and they reject scripture as a source of religious doctrine. So what that means is they don't believe that God listens to prayers. They also may or may not believe in heaven or hell. They don't believe in miracles, prophecies, angels, demons, they don't believe in the divinely inspired prophecies like the Bible. Now, some of the famous diss are Thomas Jefferson. This is gonna surprise you. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein to name a few. They were all Christian Ds and they didn't believe that Jesus is the way to God. That's hard to believe, isn't it? Now, I listed these individuals because they were also the founders of our country, and they believed that religion had no place in government. So what are your thoughts on the Diaz perspective? Wow, that's a, that's pretty tough. I guess, I kinda understand where they're coming from a little bit because, as far as like reasoning and using judgment about things, or common sense about things or scientists, scientific things, I mean, I get it. Um. That's what they base their, what they see. That's what they bas it on. And I guess, we've always talked about the past few weeks about faith and uh, I don't think they come from a place of faith. They come from a place of, of scientific reasoning. Well, so it's, uh, yeah, if, I mean, if they come from that point, I guess I understand, but I, it's just. You know, the way we grew up, there's an element of faith in it for me. You're right. Well, you know, let me just explain a little bit more. Mm-hmm. It says they do believe in a God. They just mm-hmm. Uh, don't believe in some of those things that, talked about you. God doesn't listen to prayers. They also may be, they don't believe in heaven or hell. So I, I don't in this case. Mm-hmm. I don't know if faith is. Faith is the right thing. Okay, so if they believe in God, what is what? What is, what do they believe God's purpose is then? That's a good question. That's a good question. God just made the heavens and earth, I mean, just made the universe and that's it. He's like, okay, that's it. I don't know. You know what? That's a hard one. That's a hard one because, yeah. Well, I told you,, and I, spoke about them being the, fathers of our country. I wonder if this has something to do with them saying that, religion and, and the government should be separate. Government. Say again? Yeah, so be separate. I mean, if they Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I, right. If they believe that, God is there, they believe in God, but they don't believe in any of the things that we, as, you know, new Christians believe, then I think that would make sense in why they would say that there's a separation of, church and state that they were avoiding religious persecution. But going back to the strict definition. Uh, I, I'm not gonna question their faith because obviously they are Christians, they believe in God. It's just that, um mm-hmm. Some of the things that we as modern Christians, uh, think about heaven or hell, you know, God's answering the prayers. They don't see that. They don't see that at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. So they said that they may or may not believe in heaven or hell, um. I guess they can go either way. Right? I, I, I, I, I, I, I mean, I, so I understand why they want the separation of, uh, of religion and government, uh, since they don't believe that God intervenes with, uh. With what we do here, right? It's so, so when we have a government, we make our own rules and our own laws keep God out of it. This is man's rules and man's laws we govern according to what man, you know, says what believes or, you know, the, or the law. Right. So I guess from their point of view, I guess I can see that. Yep. And you know what, I don't want this to become a, a, a political thing, but I often hear people say that, uh, you know, our country's a Christian. Based country. Uh, in reality, if we know what these forefathers thought, I don't know how anyone could come to the conclusion that we're a Christian based country. So, yeah, I just think that we've, we've said it so long that we just believe it. Oh, yes. Again, not trying to become political, but, it, it's hard to, uh, it's hard to say that we are a Christian based country when the forefathers were, Dees and didn't believe in all the things that we believe in today. So, but yeah, that being that. Go ahead. Let me say this though, even, in the Bible when they were trying to trick Jesus and they showed him a, a picture of, uh, Caesar on a coin and they asked, Jesus, what do you think about this? And Jesus said, render the things in Caesar and render the things of God. Of God. It kinda almost sounded like a deist almost, It's like, well, whatever, God. Whatever a man is made down here, Caesars on the coin or whatever, that's fine, that's fine. But also written into God, the things that of God, which I don't know what he meant by that. I guess it could be, I don't know why, why you worship God, I guess, but it kinda sound like a Des and what Jesus said almost. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Since you said that. Yeah. Right. It does sound like, mm-hmm. Jesus was speaking as a deist. Now, Yeah. In my mind, that asks other questions. I'm like, well, our modern day Christians, what are, what's our reli, what is our religion based on as Christians, we hear things like Jesus saying, that sounds like a Daz point of view. What exactly is our religion based on? I don't know. Yeah. You know it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's,. Kind of the, the teachings of Jesus. I mean, Christianity is the,, belief in Jesus Christ. So whatever Jesus Christ, preached and taught, I think that's,, what Christianity is. That's just what I always believe. Right? Uh, and I would agree with you. I would agree with you. Yeah. As I was doing the research and we had spoke about this, I didn't think we talked too much about the Diaz because it seems pretty simple and straightforward. Uh, the, the, the twist in there for me was that our founding forefathers were all deist. And I'm like, wow. You know, the fact that, you know, we think that our, our government is based upon Christian values. I'm like, well, yeah. Uh, these guys, uh, didn't believe a lot of the things that we believe in today. Right, right, right. And, and, and, uh, we were kind, we, uh, we kind of heard that. Right. But I, yeah, but I think we hear more about this Christian nation, so, right. Yeah. We just go with it, so. Yep. And we're gonna leave that one there. Okay. We'll leave that right there. This, we may get into this topic, later on down the road in our podcast and future episodes, but, uh, I really didn't think we, hit too much on that, but, so. Let's skip. Mm-hmm. And talk about the pantheist because this is a little bit more interesting and I think there's gonna be a few bombshells from this. So, uh, you gave a brief definition, uh, but let's say it in a different way. Okay. A pantheist believes that God nature are one and the same, and that everything in the universe is a mode or a part of God. Now, given that de definition. Let's review something that we spoke on from a few weeks ago, a few weeks ago when we started these discussions. We both claim to be pantheist now after these past few weeks. Mm-hmm. Reviewing what an agnostic is, an atheist, and we talk about theus and we're talking about pantheists. Do you still consider yourself to be a pantheist? And if you do, why? See, I, I want people to understand we're going through and learning also. So, so this is why I'm asking that question. Right? So, do you still consider yourself to be a pantheist? Yeah. And why? Uh, yeah. I, I, I think so because, I'm still a pantheist. Okay. Uh, because I still believe in, we're all one. Okay. Yeah, we're all one. And, We're, you can, when you get to a certain level, that high spiritual level, I think you're connected to that high spirit and you become one with, uh, with nature universe. And, you can perform miracles and you have all wisdom and all knowledge, but you have to get to that, that, that level. So that's just, that's my thought about it. And I, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick with the Pantheist. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But what about you? What are your thoughts on it? Well, would still say that I'm a pantheist with some conditions. Uh, I do believe that we can have a relationship with the Supreme being, or, or God, uh, I, mm-hmm. I look at the Diaz, I, I ask the question. What happens at death? If you're this, I mean, what happens at death? Do you have any explanation or you don't believe in, Jesus or you don't believe in a bunch of things? So in your view, what happens at death? Is there, is it over at that point in time or is there more after death? Um, mm-hmm. I feel that, I've had some personal experiences that, in my own opinion has validated and reinforced my belief in God. And the fact that God does answer prayers and is active in our lives now, but I also believe that we have to seek, mm-hmm, our search for and try to achieve a higher version of our lives. We have to become more like Jesus our Buddha, so that we can become closer to God. Now, I don't want to get into the differences between western religions and Eastern philosophies and this discussion. But we will dive deeper into the differences and the foundations later. My, my logical mind keeps me from believing everything that I read in the Bible. And I know that's a hard pill to swallow for some people to hear that, but there's so many contradictions and so,, I have a hard time trying to say my belief is based on the Bible. I believe that our upbringing, which was mm-hmm Bible based, uh, gave me a good base of knowledge as I went out into the world. That base of knowledge mm-hmm. Has kept me grounded and helped me to be an empathetic individual, empathetic toward, fellow humans and to understand the value of life. Now as I was sitting here saying this, okay, there's something that I'm gonna say, and we're gonna talk about this for a minute. I think it's probably gonna blow our minds. Um. We both claim to be pantheist. In other words, there's no separation between God and the universe. No separation at all. I mean, we think that God is you and me and everything in between. Mm-hmm. Now, the strict definition of Christianity, it's a more traditional view of God, and this God is a distinct transcendent creator who, sustains the world but is not identified with it. In other words, God created the universe, but is still separate. Now, Eastern philosophies, they're more in line with the definition of Pantheists, Hinduism, TEUs, mm-hmm. Buddhist, they're all considered pantheists. And as I think about what we believe it sounds like mm-hmm. We are more in line with some of these Eastern philosophies. Uh mm-hmm. And I believe that people don't understand the difference. Yeah, I, I agree. I think we've evolved to that level though because, uh, for me, I can only speak for myself growing up, uh, I always thought that, maybe that we could become one with God, but I also also saw God as this separate, entity. And I always go back and say, when we were in church, there was always that big picture of Jesus, of God. Holding his hand out and Jesus was there or something. It was the, in, it was an individual manlike per, creature. Creature may not be the right word, but it was man-like, and so we always thought of God as separate, but also with us as well. So, I think that's how we, growing up that that was the way our Christianity seemed to be. But as we evolve. I think we kind of evolved up to that pantheist level where, God is not a separate being. You know what though? Let me ask you this though. I, this may be getting off subject, but can God become a separate being? I don't believe that I, my, my belief is this, that God created everything and he is within everything. I mean, he's within me. Mm-hmm. He is within you. Mm-hmm. He is in, within the time, the, the distance between you and me, everything that exists is God. Yeah. The idea of God being this separate entity. Yeah. Okay. Looking down on us and making some decisions about, who's good and who's bad or mm-hmm. And, causing miracles to happen. I, I have a hard time with that. I have a hard time with that. And that's what Yeah. Our, our Christian upbringing tells us is that God sits up on high in heaven, and Yeah. Looks down. Right. But you said something right that, uh, made me think, and what you said a few minutes ago was, uh, maybe we've evolved to the next level of being a pantheist. So do you believe mm-hmm. That there's different levels of, Different levels mm-hmm. Of progression to Yeah. It sounds like we we're trying to become enlightened. If we look at our re Yeah. From what you said, our religion is the basic Yeah. That gets us started and then we move up. Right. So, what's your thoughts? I, I heard you say that and I'm like, I wanted to get into that a little bit more. Right. I do think we evolve, I think, even go back as far as the Old Testament there, we, from the. Testament. There definitely was a separate God in the Old Testament, but then when you get to the New Testament, when Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is within you, that's a whole different, uh, perspective from the Old Testament and what Jesus was trying to, I think what Jesus was teaching us is that, get to that point where you realize that God is within you and God is everywhere. From the Beatitudes where he says, blessed outta the pure and heart for they shall see God. You know when you get to that highest level where you're just pure like a, like a baby, and Jesus says, unless you become as a child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Unless you get to that pure level, you don't see God everywhere. But I think we evolve. We keep evolving, keep evolving, keep evolving till you eventually see God everywhere. And we know that God is within us. I mean, even Jesus said that, so, yeah, I think it's a matter, matter of evolving. I I even think when he says in my father's house on many mansions, I go to prepare. I think the many mansions are the different levels of evolution. Wow. Of evolving. Okay. Yeah. I I never thought of it that way. That's interesting. You just put a, a bug in my head now it's gonna bother me for the next week or so to, think of it from that perspective. Um, so. You said something also,, it being a different God from the Old Testament to the New Testament. So do you think it was, can you explain that? I it's the same God, I think, from the Old Testament To New Testament. But what happened? Did God learn and change the way he felt? Or was it that, man, changed, how did you explain, how would you explain that? Because there's a big difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Yes, it is. Yes it is. I think that, I think the writers, they had to have evolved, the writers of the Old Testament, I mean, how long ago was it? It was way before 2000 years when, when we based that on the birth of Jesus. So, uh it's almost like. It's almost like cavemen. And I know that's maybe not a good analogy, but cavemen from cavemen all the way up until where we are now, it's a big evolution. And so I think, I think the writers also evolved and to the point where, uh, the Jesus, part of the New Testament, ah. God. That's hard though, man. I mean, that's really hard. And I just think, I think the writing's evolved. Okay. So I, I, I'm gonna ask this question. So Uhhuh, we say that the Bible was written by men that were divinely inspired. Yeah. So, yep. What's the difference between the writers of the Bible, in the Old Testament and New Testament, if they were divinely inspired also. Uh mm-hmm. So there's a disconnect for me and, I hate to be the antagonist and talk about the Bible, but I'm like, yeah, what, what's the disconnect? What happened, from the Old Testament, which seemed so hard, and people were told that they could kill people, and, stories of a bear coming out of the woods and and killing a bunch of children. Yeah. Because they mocked one of the disciples. And then. We have the New Testament that's all together different. Right. So was the Old Testament divinely inspired men also? Or, or what? Yeah. Right. And see, and I just think that that's what, again, one of those things where we just accepted it, that they were divinely inspired by, how do we know they were divinely inspired by God? Now we don't know that. That's just what we, you're started to question the Bible now, so Okay. That's, but that's just what we were taught, Right. Yeah. But in the Old Testament, if somebody, somebody, uh, what is it gonna eye for? An eye? Yes. I'm like, whoa. And, and Jesus like, no, turn the other cheek. So that's a big, big. Big evolution from an eye for an eye. So who, I mean an eye for an eye. Was that Godly? Was that divinely inspired? Uh, I don't know. I don't, it doesn't sound like it, but okay. Maybe, maybe during that time based on the way they lived. Maybe it was, maybe it was. Uh, but I just think we, I think we evolved as a, as a human race. I think we evolved and. Um, Jesus is the ultimate, the ultimate, the ultimate level. And he, and it's all about love for him. And he's just like, turn the other cheek. Okay. So, but just think it's that evolution, so that's to say we are where we are right now, Right. It's also been said that there are other books of the Bible that have been hidden. So what's to say a thousand years from now? There's another, ultra New Testament added to the Bible. And we have progressed to the point that we can understand that now. Yeah. I don't, Yeah. Well, and and I got God, I got that. Do any church, religion, whatever, Uhhuh, but we've man decided what's gonna be in that Bible and what's not gonna be in the Bible. That's the truth. So some of those, some of those other books like the Book of Thomas, the Book of Mary, all those other books. Who's to said that, they're not accurate, but it, uh, I don't think it fit the narrative. So they weren't included. So what about this idea of being divinely inspired then? Yeah. Uh, woo. I don't, you know what, Gary, I don't think we'll ever know until we get to that highest level, which may take lifetimes here we go with this lifetime stuff, but Right. But until we reach that highest level, I don't think we, we will know. Right. And so we just got to go from where we at today, right now, and some, just keep trying to evolve. Some people are more evolved than others, but Right. We can't judge anybody. Um, well, okay. We just gotta go to where, from where we at now. Okay. Alright. Well, I ask these questions, uh, because I think it's important to understand where our thinking is. Um, there are and mm-hmm. Will be a lot of people that will say that it's still all about faith. Uh, but mm-hmm. To tell you the truth, I don't see faith having anything to do with someone who's a pantheist. I don't. God is president in everything that we do then. Hmm. Why do we need faith? So what I'm doing is questioning what mm-hmm. We believe. When I say we, you and I, uh, we raised Christians, right. But we believe that God is in everything that we do. Mm-hmm. And we talked about this last week when we agreed that God has a part in everything that we do. So where does the faith come in? If we believe that God is me and you and everything in between, uh, in my opinion, I think we should be trying to connect with God and that's, meditation, enlightenment as opposed to praying to someone that's separate from us. That's a hard Yeah. Hard idea. Yeah. Uh, yeah. That it is tough, but I, I. Just based on, for me, I think when you meditate and if you're able to connect to that spirit, um, and really listen, be silent and really listen mm-hmm. I think you'll hear God's wisdom. So, uh, instead of praying to God as a separate entity and waiting to see what's gonna happen. You pray, you in your meditation where you're quiet and you hear that still small voice giving you wisdom, so you're not waiting, but you're whatever wisdom God has given you, then you act upon it. Right. Okay. Well as we've learned here, the reality is we've been straddling the fence between our Christian religion and the idea of being a pantheist. And so, mm-hmm. And I don't think we're gonna answer this question, but. How do we reconcile this? Or do we even need to try to reconcile it? Short answer. What do you think? I think that, uh, everybody's on their own spiritual journey and where you're at is where you're at, and you just try to evolve more. Okay. Simple. Yeah, simple. As we talk, we can go off in all different types of directions, so that's a simple answer. Mm-hmm. And one, I would accept that. Yeah. But I think we also need to think about these other things. I think that we do need to talk about the origins of our religion and the, uh, origins of others. And we may find some answers as we, begin to understand how our religion others started, uh mm-hmm. And if we can understand how these started and why and how they evolved, and we may be able to, help ourselves to. Strengthen our faith or start on the path to enlightenment or maybe a combination of both of these. So, Hmm, that's a great idea. That's something to really think about and I'll look forward to. How about, let's start, how about we start that session next week? Okay. I tell you what, I'll do a little research and, we can talk back and forth and,, we'll dis we'll discuss this, we'll discuss this and try to start this discussion next week. Okay. Sounds good to me. Okay. Well, Gary, now we come to our favorite part of the podcast. We read a story from one of our listeners. The stories tell us some trauma, our bad times in their lives, and how they were able to overcome these hard times in their lives. We always said that one person's told story in dealing with the trials and tribulations and the life can be the playbook for someone else going through a similar situation. Okay, so this week, our story comes from Jacob and Jacob writes, I sat in the sterile hospital room listening to the beeping of monitors. The news had come as a shock. I have. Stage four prostate cancer, man. Yeah, the doctor's words rattle around in my mind, but I refuse to hear'em. I had been a non-believer for most of my life, but had recently to Christianity. I asked, why are you punishing me when I just turned my life around? I spent the past two years researching and building my faith, and now I begin questioning if there really was a God. So as the chemotherapy sessions began, I felt my body getting weaker with each session, but I clung to the scripture repeating Isaiah 41, 2 10. So do not fear for I am with you. Do not be dismayed for I am your God. My wife Sarah became our rock of support. She prayed over me each night, wiping away the tears. I tried to hide. Jacob, you're not alone in this. She whispered one e evening and holding my frail hands. God walks with you. Some nights were harder than others. The pain was overwhelming me. Exhaustion suffocated me and doubt crept in. But in those moments, I closed my eyes and picture Jesus sitting beside me, holding my hand, reminded me that healing was not always about the body. It was also about the soul. So one evening do a particularly grueling treatment. I met a fellow patient named David. David had little belief in miracles. How can you still trust God after all? This sounds like Job and his friends. Yes, he does. David asked bitterly, I smiled and said, because he has never abandoned me. Even now I feel his presence. David laugh. But listen. As the days passed, I shared my faith offering hope. Where medicine faltered. I told David of the peace that came from surrendering to God's will no matter the outcome. One afternoon I received news that stopped my heart. The latest scan showed signs of improvement. My body was responding and the cancer was retreating. I tried hard as Sarah hugged me tightly. David sitting nearby, witnessed the miracle unfold, and for the first time I saw something new in his eyes, which was hope. Weeks later, I walked outta the hospital as a survivor. My body had been bat battered, but my faith had never wavered. As I stepped out the hospital into the sunlight, I whispered a prayer of gratitude. A few days later, I went back to visit my new friend David, whoever become believer. I stood beside him and He said, you didn't just fight cancer, Jacob. You fought out and you won. David died a few weeks later, but he had found God in his battle with cancer. He died believing in God and knowing that his soul was saved. Wow. Thank you Jacob for sending. Yeah. Thank you Jacob, for sending your story. We hope that, you have found some peace and purpose in your life. We believe that your lived life experience is someone's playbook for dealing with the storms in their lives. Your story will help someone to find a strength to deal with the storms in their lives. This will close our podcast for today. Thank you for joining us today on Cirque De Soul. We hope that it sparks some new thoughts about the purpose of life. If you would like to send us some questions for discussion or if you would like to send your story. Please email these to CDU soul44@gmail.com. CDU Soul, C-I-R-Q-U-E-B-U-S-O-U l444@gmail.com. If you have found value in today's episode, please share it with someone who might benefit from it. Don't forget to like and subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. And always remember your spiritual journey is unique to yours. But you are never alone. There's always gonna be others to help you through the storms in your life. So take care of yourself, be kind to yourself and be kind to the world around you. And until the next time, have a great day in paradise and to happen right away. But you sit so. So as I myself and drop my.